A little more NSA
The early polling by the WaPo says that "Most Americans support NSA's Efforts." If this polling holds up over time, we don't deserve our freedoms.
But this might impact that number. Josh Marshall found this buried in a WaPo story.
But this might impact that number. Josh Marshall found this buried in a WaPo story.
Government access to call records is related to the previously disclosed eavesdropping program, sources said, because it helps the NSA choose its targets for listening.
posted by mikevotes at
8:02 AM
10 Comments:
The pushback on the talk show circuit tonight will be pretty heavy from the Bush apologists (i.e., see Americans do trust the preznit to protect civil liberties and fight terrorism.)
And you're right, if these numbers hold up over the long haul, we deserve KGB-like security personnel kicking down our doors because they got someinfo on us from our Internet-surfing habits.
Jesus, how stupid can Americans be? I'm just blown away by it all.
And the funny thing is, the Bush administration wasn't able to track the 9/11 terrorists with the info they had BEFORE 9/11 and now they want to tell us adding tens of millions of pieces of new info will help them? Right - they couldn't get ice down to New Orleans for the first two months after Katrina.
By
Reality-Based Educator, at 9:07 AM
Interesting point about the amount of data collected. IS that really beneficial if our intel agencies cannot properly sift through it? Or worse if PDB's like "OBL determined to strike using airplanes" is outright ignored.
Or even in the case of Iraq, where intel is cherry-picked to pursue a pre-determined policy.
Let's say that the President, who is apparently not bound by the Constitution, rule of law, or Congressional oversight, decides that people driving foreign cars (or some other absurd quantitative measure) are suspicious and to be targeted. Then what does it matter what the huge amounts of other data says about 'threats', when the focus is elsewhere?
The point is that the determination of what qualifies as a 'threat' is now in the hands of the politico and not a thoughtful, intelligence assesment. It's not even left to a process that theorizes enough to at least get a warrant—we're all suspects.
By
zen, at 10:15 AM
Told ya...
;)
Seriously, I want to see if these numbers hold up. The media contains many anti-Bush wiretap stories so it's early. But like I said yesterday, I think this story will shrink back and go away. We DO deserve the government we get.
Gas prices (number 1) and the war (number 2) are Bush's achilles heels. And gas prices are about to level and likely start downward toward fall. Not back to previous lows mind you, but it will be perceived as a "relief" as we adapt to a new, higher range. The only exception to that prediction is an attack on Iran. But my bet in the pool is for later in the year for the bombing campaign.
BTW. I'm out of the stock market.
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Greyhair, at 10:23 AM
Do you think a fall in gas prices will then be spun as something Bush should get credit for?
As for now the message is that there's really nothing the prez can do to impact gas prices short term....unless they drop, then hell yes, your welcome, the prez did it for you because he cares.
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zen, at 10:37 AM
Reality based, I don't think that's funny at all. It's the basic problem with the Bush presidency, they take actions that assume their competent.
Zen, you hit the root problem of all of this to me, that it exists absent any oversight. The database is bad, but there was no interbranch oversight in its creation or use. The only reason they wouldn't go through the courts is because they wouldn't allow it. That's at the root of this story to me.
And, on your second comment, yes. I do think Bush will get some credit if gas prices go down. The current projections I've seen said, absent any more problems, that should happen around labor day, a couple months before the election.
Greyhair, don't gloat. You know I thought about you as I was angrily writing this post. I agree with you about Iraq and gas pries being the core undermining issues, but I also expected more cross contamination of the numbers. That people who were already angry about Iraq would be more likely to be angry about this. If you look at all the polling, that is taking place on almost every other issue, so I went with the conclusion it would happen here, too.
Mike
By
mikevotes, at 10:48 AM
Only a slight gloat. I'm not completely sold that opinion has fully gelled. Lots of conservative papers had negative editorials today.
People are really funny about the security thing ... much less courageous than I remember our culture as a kid.
There's a line in the movie "Three Days of the Condor" spoken by Cliff Robertson when he confronts Redford, who is blowing the lid off a CIA operation. It regards oil and how Americans view it. Paraphrasing, he says "they won't care how or where we get it, just so we get it".
A very prescient remark. It's true about oil and I think it's true about security.
BTW, just to weigh in. I think gas prices will moderate before labor day. The topping off (no pun intended) is happening now and supplies are increasing as refineries complete the switchover to gasoline from heating oil.
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Greyhair, at 11:05 AM
Mike, I think I meant "ironic" more than funny. But the point still stands: how does anybody in their right mind think these incompetents can sift through tens of millions of pieces of data when they can't handle even the simplest of tasks.
But let's see how the polling works over the next few days. I'm not sure how valuable a one-day poll about a story that just broke is anyway. Let's see what people think next week. Unfortunately, the poll does give cover to the chowderheads like Cornyn and Kyl. At least for now. And who knows what else gets leaked about this story in the near future?
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Reality-Based Educator, at 12:19 PM
I think they should have asked these fools the follow-up question of whether they believe Saddam Hussein was behind the attacks on 9/11.
As many - oh too, too many people still do.
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Anonymous, at 12:24 PM
Rachie, that would be a pretty good way to turn the tables on the soft on terror argument.
Mike
By
mikevotes, at 12:54 PM
Guys, here is what is going on with the database. The government is collecting information about which phonenumbers call which phonenumbers for datamining purposes. That way, if we raid an al-queda hideout in Iraq and find documents with numbers on them for example, we can crossreference them to see who they may have been calling in the United States.
That's why a majority of Americans, including myself, support this. It makes perfect sense, unless one believes that dictators and the terrorists are the good guys and the people in the executive branch are the bad guys.
By
jhbowden, at 12:40 AM
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